Interview with a Poet: Reflections on the Work of Bruce Whiteman

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9 (Melpomene) 

Lack of belief is the tragedy. It’s not that God’s ineffable face is gone. It’s out there somewhere like a star, like a childhood memory fated eventually to rise. It’s counting on the smaller things that come to be the hardest: poetry and its adagio truths, the tick-tock of love interminably out of reach and bound to fade away in any case, cocks and clocks and every squalid aspiration for eternity.

Bruce Whiteman, The Invisible World is in Decline, Book IX (p. 33). ECW Press. Kindle Edition. 

Bruce Whiteman lives in Peterborough, Ontario, where he is a full-time poet and book reviewer. Most recently he is the editor of Best Canadian Essays 2021 (Biblioasis). His selected essays and reviews will be published in 2022 by Biblioasis. Book IX, the conclusion to his long poem, The Invisible World Is in Decline, appears this April 2022 (ECW Press). His book reviews appear in such publications as The Hudson Review, The Los Angeles Review of Books, Canadian Notes & Queries, The Toronto Star, Quill & Quire and elsewhere.

Published this year (2022) The Invisible World is in Decline, Book IX is the last of nine books in your long poem of the same name which you began in 1981.  Congratulations on the publication, and thank you for allowing me to interview you.  As a writer who focuses on the metaphysical, particularly cycles of time and how they are expressed in culture, I find your work compelling, as it represents a concerted effort of vision which you have managed to sustain over a considerable time period.  Poetry is difficult work, as the matters of life, love, loss, hope can be onerous points of focus which many prefer to avoid. The Invisible World is in Decline represents an oeuvre of continual, concentrated self-awareness that is remarkable, and I am grateful that you are willing to share some insights. 

In Opus Posthumous (1957) Wallace Stevens says:  “The poet is the priest of the invisible.” The poet’s invocation of words charges our perception of hidden reality with power not otherwise available; through poetry, we are allowed to commune with subtleties which lie in places normally unknown.  Poetry’s precise reflectivity provides impressions of the invisible world with a power that is akin to that of visual arts such as photography, painting or sculpture, but poetry goes beyond what those arts offer, as the power of language is specifically human.  Good poetry has a visceral impact that forever changes the reader. Through the work of a skilled poet such as yourself, we are allowed to view the shape of the ethers underpinning our world, and we come away with new knowledge in apprehending a perspective not normally seen.

To be a poet takes great strength, and speaks of a love of life that encompasses a willingness to not look away and hide from tenderness of this world, but rather revel in it, transcribing impressions for the benefit of all.  I hope my questions here are not too personal, or vague, but rather represent what others may find salient in considering your poetry.  Your work and insights are deeply valuable, and much appreciated. Thank you Bruce.

#1 Define “Invisible World”

The phrase “invisible world” brings many things to mind, and as a person who tends to look at things metaphysically, I was quite struck by this concept.  For me, this phrase refers to the subtle current of energies which underpin what we consider consensual reality.  What do you mean when you use the phrase “the invisible world”?  Are you specifically referring to the world of the aesthete, the artist and musician, a world little perceived by the majority of humanity, or is it perhaps a spiritual reference? 


There have been times over the last forty years when the title of my long poem has seemed a regrettable limitation. Perhaps I should have chosen something less specific, broader, more capacious, like The Cantos or The Divine Comedy. And almost necessarily the poem sometimes strays quite far from the central armature, perhaps most especially at those times when the personal irresistibly comes back into the work, through passion or trauma or whatever is the case.

No, the title is not aesthetic; yes, it’s more spiritual. If you look back over the history of thought since the Enlightenment, it’s pretty obvious that the invisible world is in decline. Call it God, or the world of the spiritual generally speaking, its centrality to our lives has eroded. We see this in Locke, in Hume, in Nietzsche among the philosophers. In poetry, Wordsworth’s The Prelude announces the future dominance of the personal that will continue to be at poetry’s heart through Whitman and on into Modernism. Some Modernist art will aspire to be impersonal—T.S. Eliot wanting to derogate private experience, etc.—but really almost all art in every genre is personal after Wordsworth, after Berlioz, after Blake and Turner, after Freud. So the world of the spirits, as opposed to the world of the spirit, comes to be left behind or at least to decline in relevance. I chose such an idea as the central theme of my long poem precisely so I could get away from lyricism, from the ego as the source of poetry. I freely admit that over nine books and forty years, I didn’t always succeed in keeping the ego out of the poem.

#2 Is poetry confessional or impersonal?

It seems it is the poet’s task to delineate ephemera, showing us what they have retrieved while in communion with energies that ultimately transcend the personal.  The poet transcribes delicate perceptions into a transpersonal form, allowing the sharing of material which is larger than the individual. How much of your poetry has served as personal testament as opposed to representing collective considerations, or vice versa?  I understand that you have converted to the Catholic faith, and you are surely aware of the importance of confession to the life of a practicing Catholic.  How, throughout your career, has poetry served in place of that formal sacrament, if at all?  


I converted in 2019, so the bulk of my poem was composed before I became a Catholic, at one of the worst moments in Church history, I might add! As far as confession goes, both in the Christian sense and the psychotherapeutic sense, when I began to write The Invisible World, I had reached a point as a poet when confession had become boring, and it was precisely to get away from the confessional mode that I turned to the prose poem and the long poem. I suppose, now that you ask, that poetry WAS a kind of sacrament when I was young and writing lyric poetry, poems about feelings largely, the sorts of things one talks to a priest or a psychoanalyst about. The seven deadly sins writ large or secularized. With my long poem I wanted out of therapy, and into a kind of language that engages larger issues that are not at heart personal. Book IV is about light, for example. Inevitably, and even against my better judgement, personal feeling got back into the poem, especially at moments in my life when I was devastated by something–a love affair gone bad, the death of a parent, etc. I even allowed the “lined” poem back in twice, once at the end of Book VII and again in Book IX, where one whole section consists of poems—translations in fact—of conventionally structured poems. So I guess the short answer to your question is, inevitably, both.

#3 Does decline imply a fall from grace, or is it a matter of cyclical change?   

To consider that the invisible world is in decline is sad, and also somewhat alarming.  The question that comes to mind is this: why is it in decline? Is saying the invisible world is in decline a statement of hopelessness, or cynicism?  Or is it a clear-minded, objective assessment?  Does this concept of decline encompass the idea of falling from grace? Do you believe that decline is inevitable, a condition of mortality, or is there a turning point which can be found somewhere?   Is decline a permanent state, or do you believe it is a cyclical affair? 


That’s a hard question to be definitive about. The metanarrative of continual human progress is not easy to argue for, when you take a cold hard look at the planet today. The climate crisis feels like just the latest demonstration that somehow we humans have wasted our opportunity as a species through egotism. Of course, when you think about progress in concrete ways, it’s hard not to agree with the statements that we should be glad not to be forced to have dental work done in the 18th century, or that the elimination of smallpox is a wonderful thing. But spiritual progress? Not really. A geographer named Carl Sauer once pointed out that the first time humans did something really bad to the Earth was during the Renaissance, when humanism came to the fore; and in that sense, it has been downhill ever since, as far as our relationship with nature is concerned. And maybe our relationship with God too. But it’s complicated, and I’m not sure that the idea of a fall from grace is historically accurate. Emotionally, though, it kind of feels apt. It’s hard to imagine that we will ever return to the sort of integrated world view of earlier periods in human history. But hope is a very human emotion, so who knows?

#4 Are poets psychopomps?   

In Book IX, you say:

“Part of a poet’s job is to journey to hell. Seeking dear ones gone into pitch. Wanting the smell of love, the touch of a moving body. Missing hoarfrost and starshine, glabrous light, polyphonic voices.” (p. 14)


“Remembering the dead, our lot is to walk carefully forward. Not to fall headlong from hour to hour, from day to day, hurled like water from edge to edge, into the darkness that yawns beneath our steps. Like a man on a wire we don’t look back and can’t look down, but focus straight ahead.” (p.16)

Your use of the psychopomp as a recurring character is fascinating. For those not familiar, a psychopomp is a divine or semi-divine being who is able to traverse the borders between the land of the living and the land of the dead, travelling back and forth to the underworld usually to fulfill a specific task, relay information or retrieve something lost.  Very few have been allowed by the gods to travel to make this journey and return to tell the tale, and success usually involves not looking back at that which we wish to bring to the surface. In looking back, we express doubt, and we scorn a divine gift, yet it is such a temptation to do what we have been decreed not to do. As a poet, how do you relate to the figure of the psychopomp? Are poets psychopomps in their own way, and should they be?  What temptations does the poet entertain in traversing the invisible landscapes of the underworld?


I took the idea of the psychopomp from Jung, for whom it is much as you say—a kind of spiritual cicerone. Some of the great works of western literature describe the visit to the realm of the dead—The Odyssey in Book 11, The Aeneid in Book 6, and of course Dante’s Inferno, the first great book of The Divine Comedy. The Orpheus myth as told by Ovid and others falls into this narrative as well. All of the seekers return to the world or rise upwards, sadder but wiser. Dante has to leave his psychopomp behind, because he—the poet Virgil—is a pagan, and not qualified to enter Paradise. Orpheus of course loses Eurydice because, as you say, he lacks faith and looks back to ensure that she is following him–just exactly what he has been told not to do. As I say in a note to Book IX, the psychopomp in one way is the master of dreams. Several of my poems engage with something I literally heard in a dream and recorded–the statement, for example, “I have an immortality problem.” I was hesitant to use dream material this literally, but decided in the end that there is so much poetry in dreams that it was stupid or ungenerous to ignore it. Dreams often do feel like an expedition to Hell, and what we can learn there, and from them, seems worth registering. Are poets psychopomps in this sense? The ancients would have answered in the affirmative for sure, and I do too.

#5  What advice do you have for the young poet?

For one last question, I ask broadly – what do you have to say to the young poet?  What advice do you have?  What would you like to say to those who would follow in your path, taking up the life of a poet?


I would try to be positive, though the real-world rewards are few. I would say, read as much as possible, poetry and other literature too. You cannot write well if you do not have a rich reading experience among the poets who came before you. Poetry doesn’t begin with Mary Oliver or Leonard Cohen. Read Homer and everything or as much as possible of what comes after him. Read translations if you don’t have other languages, though knowing another language is a very good thing for a poet. And as a poet who emphasizes the musical elements of poetry, I would recommend knowing at least something about how music works. Read aloud a lot. Read and re-read the same poems to know them well. Hang out with other creative people—musicians, painters et al. They will provoke you but also be good readers of your work. Learn about where words come from, as this will enrich the ways in which you use them. Poetry isn’t much of a living, honestly, but it’s a rich way to engage with life.


Joshua Tree National Park, California, USA

How futile is this running!

It is tragic, fraught.

Find a place to stand, instead.

Astrology: Saturn in the Signs

Hendrik Andriessen, “Still-life composition with human skull, globe, books, crown, miter, bubbles, mussel shell with bubble pipe, holly crown on skull, watch on table, candlestick (with reflection of artist’s portrait)“, Flemish, painting, 1650.

While every planet will always maintain its fundamental character and function no matter where located, how that character and function is expressed will be modified according to the sign in which they are housed. Saturn is the disciplinarian of the zodiac, and his purpose is to provide a sense of structure and maturity in the personality. As he is the Lord of Karma, working with Saturn’s occasionally oppressive energy becomes easier as time passes, as experience is gained through the various houses of life experience, and a greater sense of self-comprehension is achieved. Saturn’s energy is never easy, nor is it meant to be. Saturn always gives us a sense of insecurity, no matter where he is housed, and this negative effect is pronounced as the contacts to personal planets and points grown more and more complicated.

Consider him as a grandfather figure – older, wiser, stricter and more accomplished than you can ever be. It only makes sense to heed his lessons and warnings, as those who refuse to accept his limitations will often find themselves feeling like Sisyphus, forever pushing that stone up a hill, never achieving their goals, because they are not going about their tasks correctly. Working with Saturn takes a great degree of patience and respect, honoring the spirit of time, discipline and the virtue of hard work and focus.

Saturn in Aries: In Aries, Saturn is at his Fall. The Aries essence of Cardinal Fire is of no interest to dour, paternalistic Saturn. His energy is expressed fitfully, and a sense of suppression is constant, as the impulse to action and accomplishment feels stifled and squelched. Aries is impetuous, bold and courageous. With Saturn breathing down his back, he feels insecure about accomplishment and often second-guesses his actions. Not a comfortable energy. At its best, this energy can be found in the archetpye of the perfect soldier, ever ready to submit to authority, who will direct the individual’s energy as circumstances require. Self expression is subsumed in favor of supporting the Other.

Saturn in Taurus: In Fixed Earth Taurus, Saturn expresses himself comfortably, with a sense of solidity that borders on the stolid. Conservative and patient, insecurity and hindrance may be felt in approaching the topic of enjoyment and sensuality. These things can feel excessive and decadent. Saturn in Taurus wants to accumulate resources, comfort and security, but will never feel that it is quite enough, and frequently finds that however hard one tries, the material realm does not satisfy. At its best, this energy can be found in the well-established, dependable patron or matron of the arts, ever ready to lend a stabilizing force to the needy and underdeveloped, as the structure of acquisition is well understood.

Saturn in Gemini: In Gemini, Saturn expresses himself with careful consideration. At odds with the typical Gemini nature, as Mutable Air is rapidly moving and somewhat superficial in approach, Saturn here will become very focused on details, on accumulation of data, and acquisition of expertise. This Saturn is not satisfied with a superficial approach, and insecurity will center around not knowing enough, not being smart enough, and not feeling confident in self-expression, scholastic or intellectual capability. This basic insecurity can conversely result in complete expertise as the impetus is always to improve on what has already been achieved.

Saturn in Cancer: In Cardinal Water Cancer, Saturn is at his Detriment. The passive, feminine and tender nature of Cancer is at odds with the stern, cold and forbidding nature of Saturn. This is an uncomfortable situation, as the individual will live with a very basic emotional insecurity. Expressing emotion will often be suppressed, though the importance of being emotionally present and responsible in relationships will be given great importance. This individual can often feel a sense of hand-wringing when confronted with an emotional scene, as understanding of the underpinning is there, even if the capacity to participate fully is diminished.

Saturn in Leo: In Fixed Fire Leo, Saturn is at his Detriment. The warm, gregarious, proud and fun-loving nature of Leo is directly at odds with the proper, straight-laced and conservative Saturnian energy. The individual feels insecure about self-confidence, and any sense of pride in accomplishment is undermined by nagging self-doubt and inward self-recrimination. An uncomfortable interplay between the very human need to shine, and the basic essence of self-abnegation makes for a constant feeling of suppression. At its best, this can evolve into a stately sense of social accomplishment, of becoming a proud role-model of upright, socially valued behavior.

Saturn in Virgo: In Mutable Earth Virgo, Saturn expresses himself with precision, focusing on pursuits of the intellect, reason and rationality. Meticulousness in detail is heightened, as well as an increased interest in duty and performance of those duties which directly assist others. Attention to hygiene, diet, health and welfare of those less capable of managing matters independently is positively enhanced with this placement, as is scholarship, research and domesticity. Insecurities focus on the idea of not being perceived as correct, proper, fastidious, or “good” enough. Being caught in an error can prove immensely embarrassing, and the Saturn in Virgo native will go to great pains to avoid any such circumstances.

Saturn in Libra: In Cardinal Air Libra, Saturn is Exalted. The refined, airy nature of this sign is perfectly in tune with Saturn’s aridity and love of all that is cold and classical. Libra finds joy in the idea of perfection, whether it is aesthetic or ideological, and Saturn revels in assisting the quest for beauty, harmony and balance. The perfect architect, aesthetic or diplomat, Saturn in Libra knows how to actualize what otherwise might remain idealized and conceptual. Insecurity arises from erroneously perceived imperfection, from an inability to strike balance, and from any circumstances which threaten to destabilize the otherwise honed and balanced perspective. Ugliness and sordidness threaten the equilibrium, and all must be maintained just so for effective function to occur.

Saturn in Scorpio: In Fixed Water, Saturn expresses itself with an unsettling coldness. Deep waters are no concern for Saturn, as his natural domain is hidden and subterranean. He is comfortable with the watery depths, as they are merely an extension of his regular habitats, and issues of life and death, sexuality, and deep emotion, while seemingly at odds with Saturn’s nature, in fact have just enough gravitas to warrant respectability. Never one to shy from difficult or unsettling circumstances, Saturn in Scorpio is a natural physician, surgeon, psychotherapist or counselor. Insecurity stems from feeling an inability to connect on a deep level, or from being perceived as superficial or, conversely, from expressing depths with too much intensity or passion. Saturn in Scorpio understands these depths, but can feel shy about exposing them to others.

Saturn in Sagittarius: In Sagittarius, Mutable Fire, Saturn expresses himself by offering a steadying hand to an intellect that desires rapid pursuit of ideals and philosophy. Sagittarius is known to rush headlong on the journey of discovery; Saturn placed here offers the discipline and profundity that may otherwise be lacking by the notoriously inconstant Sagittarius. Once a sense of patience, and an understanding of how rewarding the fruits of sustained labor can be, a practical approach to higher learning, open-mindedness and a profoundly judicial perspective can emerge. Insecurity can be found in feeling threatened by ideas and philosophies that seem overly alien, imposing or which otherwise threaten the jovial camaraderie of the Sagittarius nature. At its best, this energy is used as a highly developed arbiter, one who is capable of sussing out truth and fairness in any situation. Law, justice, therapists, artists and writers can find this placement useful.

Saturn in Capricorn: In Cardinal Earth, Saturn is in his Domicile. He is at home, comfortable, perfectly expressing his modus operandi. Here, he is stern, practical, ambitious, executive and unemotional in dispensing authority and actualizing plans. Saturn in Capricorn is the master builder, the laborer who knows the design better than the architect, because not only was he taught by the architect, his grandfather was a master craftsman. His understanding of the material realm is profound. Pitfalls can arise when considering the less materialistic aspects of life, as it is difficult to separate the practical from that which is more tender and open to interpretation. Realms of emotion and spirit, while responsibly addressed, and faultless in execution, can be regarded with a rather chilly eye, as the ultimate consideration is always how to achieve, perfect and realize the goal. Insecurity comes in the form of feeling that nothing is ever good enough, rich enough, smart enough or well-heeled enough. Humble roots may be an embarrassment, even though “humble” may be defined from an entirely subjective perspective, having nothing to do with material want; it is the fact that any weakness, or tiny flaw is perceived as a vulnerability which cannot be tolerated or exposed.

Saturn in Aquarius: In Fixed Earth, Saturn is in his Domicile. As traditional ruler of Aquarius, Saturn finds comfort in the chilly heights of the Aquarian realm. The spheres of high science, theory, utopianism, modernity and an arms-length love of humanity are worthy realms for Saturn to inhabit, as the technicality and diminished emphasis on emotion of the Aquarian is given structure and credence by Saturn’s love of structure and rules. Saturn is comfortable infusing Aquarius with strong parameters of development, as the sign benefits from a strong structure within to explore and experiment. Aquarius respects that which has longevity and stability, sometimes only for the fact that the bigger they come, the harder they fall, and a rebel loves a good fight. Insecurity can arise when feeling “too different”, or misconceived as weird, stubborn or cold.

Saturn in Pisces: In Mutable Water, Saturn flounders as Pisces attempt to dissolve and universalize all that it touches. Saturn here wants to provide boundaries, hard rock for the ocean to crash against, and it works to a certain degree, as Pisces benefits from some sense of containment. Disillusionment occurs when seeking mystical release within the confines of institutionalized thought, and what seems profound occasionally is realized as merely archaic and fancy. Saturn in Pisces can reach the heights of emotional and social communion, but it is best appreciated when grounded in a life that can benefit from, rather than be focused entirely on such pursuits. Insecurity arises when the individual feels unbounded, diffuse, lost or uncertain, as rising panic can mount and destabilize the personality.

“Time’s glory is to calm contending kings,

To unmask falsehood, and bring truth to light.”

William Shakespeare, The Rape of Lucrece, 1594, l. 939.